Twokinds ARCHIVE Forums

Quick warning! I notice my Conservative Christian opinions can tend to offend at times, so I'm pre-warning you that that's the person I am.

People say they want Presidents to keep their religion out of their decisions. What does that mean? I think a very good religion influences someone in everything they do- does this mean we should only allow non-religious Presidents into office? Of course not, but then how does one keep religion out of politics- it's simple, really.

Religion will only be "kept out" of something, be it politics or art or country, whatever- if its practicers are either subdued or removed. In America, they are mostly subdued- they must be, because over 80% of the population, last poll I checked, was Christian! There are few in America who boldly speak for God, especially in our youth. And even then, they often do so out of hate.

Why? I have a theory. Turn on some of the comedies. I'm pretty sure the Simpsons, Family Guy, American Dad have all taken a few good swipes at Christianity. People want to say comedy is inconsequential- but let's face it, people tend to listen to the opinions of funny people. Opinions set out in humorous ways, we remember more than others. Those opinions need not be informed or wise, simply funny. Christian kids may very well listen to Peter Griffin tell them that their Christian parents were probably hateful towards gays- but lets face it, that's not a majority vote. Maybe they have a negative kneejerk reaction to homosexuality- I will openly admit I do.

But laughter is a weapon. Anyone bullied on the playground can tell you that you feel yourself shrinking three sizes when every one of the big kids is laughing at you. Laughing because your voice is too high, or you walk funny, or because you can't hit a ball in baseball. Sometimes all they need to do is laugh, call you names, and what do you do? You shrink.

And we can't laugh back, because if we do, what happens? We're called hateful, snide, and rude, unbecoming to Scripture.

I suppose someone will respond and say "Oh YEAH? Well guess what happens when gays/bis/Buddhists/Martians try to speak out!" And I'll say right now that there's really no point in arguing over who's more oppressed when Christianity literally began by being oppressed (what else would you call the crucifixion and execution of all save one of Jesus' disciples, and most of the disciples' disciples?) and continued to either be oppressed or warred upon for pretty much every day of the week since that. Granted, we did have Christendom for a while, but that wasn't exactly the most stable base in the universe. It's also nice to be called a fascist every now and then, and be potently reminded that the mass amount of people in the world are morons.

Am I going to say "oh pity us please, us poor Christians get beat up every day by the mean fat cartoon on TV?" No, I'm not here to whine about how someone thinks I'm a fascist or whatever because I go to church every Sunday, I'm going to show it to you from our point of view, or so I'd figure. So here it is.

The media attacks Christianity. Alot. Also, the lack of any real head of the Protestant church (The Archbishop of Canterbury SO does not count) keeps us from making stable doctrine. There were, are, and will be such things as Christian scientists- people talk about faith like it's the opposite of logic. So much of the world's problems is about what people think without actually thinking about it- with ideas people refuse to get out of their heads, even though the same ideas contradict one another. If faith is the opposite of reason, and reason is man's tool to understand and comprehend the universe, how can there be, then, such rational minds that have lived Christian lives? Isaac Newton, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, Athanasius, St. Augustine, just to name a few!

Alright...I's done. I'm going to bed now. With any luck, I'll be relatively un-flamed. And I need to finish the Morphist part I'm working on and get it on the story boards. T_T

Goodnight.

@ Wynni
most of those comics take shots at Jesus because the people who write them are Christian and don't want to get sued for racism or discrimination

Right… I’m having a hard time accepting this when 80% of the United States is Christian and it’s one of the top three religions in the world. But I understand where you are coming from. You even acknowledged that in your post.

I do think it’s weird that most minorities seem to wiggle out of their share of mockery, but that’s the price for being the majority in America. Besides, I think Buddhist jokes are hilarious, along with every other religion.


Your reasoning on this seems a bit of a problem. Keeping religion out of politics is sort of necessary to a health government. The morals and in general values from a religion are all well and good, in fact some are quite important. But the idea of the process is to keep the particulars of each religion out of the process and cater to all faith’s and creeds equally. We’re not supposed to play favorites as I understand



Agreed, though substitute a different descriptor for me personally. Though I’m pretty sure this phenomena is not unique to Christians (Fun fact; Atheists and agnostics are considered the most untrustworthy people in America) Also, I’m pretty sure every religions practitioners believe that.



I’m first going to say that this was a good point. Next I’m going to say that C.S. Lewis bored me to tears. And Thirdly I’m going to say that the reason for the Faith =/= reason split comes from the actually nature of the word. Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. It sort of puts itself out there .

But, And here’s the important part, just because someone has faith in something does not make them incapable of logic or any high minded thinking. But on both sides of the issue we have absolute idiots who seem incapable of finding a middle ground.


Really, my only problem with debating with Christians (and religious people in general. The smart ones don’t, but I see them few and far between) is that they have a annoying tendency to use scripture instead on actual reasoning. What am I supposed to do with that? All I can say is “you’re wrong” and then they say that I’, wrong and we get stuck in some insipid loop

I don't have any problem with religion in general. I'm an agnostic myself, but I can definitely see the value in having that added comfort of hoping for something better. Religion, for the most part, is a good thing as far as I can see. Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, and all those other fancy "isms" and "ities" have essentially good intentions for the world at large. It's when those ideas get perverted by a select few that religion gets a bad rap.

What bothers me are people who are against religion for the sake of being against it. I've a certain person I know who does just this. Annoying little [censored], pardon my French. If religion is brought up - doesn't matter which - she takes a stab at whatever's on the plate. Why, I don't know. I suppose its cool. Gets a laugh or something. And yet she's "agnostic" I think so she has something to fall back on when she pisses someone off a bit too much. Its obnoxious, and pisses me off a lot more than many other things can.

I consider myself agnostic because when I look around, I can't really believe we're the top dogs in the universe. I don't think there's one all-knowing, all-powerful being that stirred the universal soup pot, but I think there are forces far greater than us. One has to be naive not to think at least that.

I'm a little curious about what Graham's post was completely removed for... Would you PM me a copy of the post if you remember what you wrote?


Why retaliate when there's no reason to? You don't accomplish anything by retaliating and you really only cause more problems. Let them think and say what they want. I don't think it's our job to tell people they are wrong. The best way for us to fight back is to show them through our actions that we're not the hateful monsters the media and other things make us out to be.

Note: I don't want to say that any of you are wrong either. This is just my opinion on the subject.

It means that those of us who don't share your set of religious beliefs are scared that we'll have to live with laws directly reflecting those decisions, which, as we all know, is directly antithetical to what this country stands for. We're against a theocracy, a tyranny of the religious majority. A federal, democratic system of government is, was, and never should be used by the majority to impose itself upon the minority completely. That comes from the people who argued for our federalist government.


A few things. For one, the diversity of that 80% statistic is mind-blowingly staggering. You have: Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Non-Denominational, etc. ad infinitum. For two, why does it matter what the majority's faith is? Does this mean we should rule by faith? That's a dangerous thing to want, because once you open that door, you can't close it. Do we want to risk ending up like an Islamic theocratic nation?


It may not be a majority vote, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a sizable segment of the population who does feel that way. Many times I hear "Hate the sin, love the sinner," but how often is that true, and how often is that simply a phrase to hide behind? You can't tell me you hate the sin and love the sinner as you try and protest a gay commitment ceremony or hold a banner that says "Recriminalize Sodomy."

If you have a kneejerk reaction to homosexuality, why can't I or others in this country have a kneejerk reaction to Christianity?


Lawrence King.


Yes, Christians were brutally oppressed for a few hundred years, until 313 when Constantine finally put an end to it. And once Christians became the dominant ruling force, homosexuals were the ones brutally oppressed. I'm pretty sure more than a thousand years trumps a few hundred years. Note that I'm not demeaning what Christians went through back then; merely pointing out that if you're going to start saying Christians were more oppressed, it was Christians who became the bullies to homosexuals and brutally oppressed them for even longer. I mean, gays haven't been treated fairly until just the last 30 or so years, after the Stonewall riots gave rise to homosexual activism. 30 years. Think about how long since Constantine's rule until 1970 that is for people to be repressed for who they are, an even more basic thing than what they believe. You get to be proudly Christian; I get to remain closeted in real life because I fear for my safety and well-being.


Just as it is to be called faggot, homo, and queer, yes?


No luck for you! D:< Seriously though, hope my response gives you some food for though from the other side of the coin.

EDIT: Had to share thoughts on Luca's post.

Exactly! If people react badly to a bad portrayal, it only reinforces the image others told. Think about Muslims, for a moment. When the political cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban appeared, saying that Islam is a religion of violence, how did a sizable percent of Muslims in the Middle-East react? Violently. It sets up a self-fulfilling prophecy that gets you nowhere, and fast.

Agreed. Back-and-forth insults don't solve anything. If someone slams something you believe in, its better to get to the bottom of why they did it. Granted, we have the advantage of clear minds while on a forum, and in real conversation you don't get a Backspace key, but it's an ideal to strive for.

You have to feel strongly to be offensive about something, Yash. I respect you doing your job, but you didn't accurately pick up the message. The only thing I feel strongly about is my paycheck and whether it's on time or not. Also, ignorance is a description, not an insult.

But per request of the moderator, here's the second try.


See, this is actually just an opinion. Not a fact. Stating it like a fact gets people offended. Personally I think every president should be 100% without religion, or equal parts of every world religion. That's the only way to remove any biased action based on religion.


80% of people polled where Christian. Tell me, where do you think they took this poll? In the streets of Chicago on a random day? Or was it a university taking it on campus or in the nearby city? Which do you think is more likely? That or a similar scenario is probably the case, which means that number is really just 80% of a tiny representative chunk of America is Christian. What about all the other representative chunks? What if they polled it in southern Florida where the Jewish population is huge? Do you see where this is going?

Trying to speak to the masses just because you're assuming a similar religious foothold is dangerous and just incredibly offensive to anyone who doesn't share your beliefs.


No. No, the media attacks everything a lot. They attack gays, the military, politicians, states, criminals, other countries - they'd probably attack you and me individually if they had the chance. You think Christianity is dulled because of the media? Ok. But then by your same logic, everything else is also equally dulled. I actually don't see Christianity getting picked on by the media at all, unless you count the extremist groups. This statement is voided entirely because the media is indiscriminatory on what they attack - excluding other media. Christianity isn't 'special' because it's picked on by the media, because damn near everything on Earth is.

I suppose I shouldn't call those statements ignorant, because then it would deemed as an insult. But I'll say you did ignore a whole lot of factors when you made those statements.

You seem to be trying to say that Christianity is being oppressed, and you being a Christian feel it shouldn't because you think it's the correct religion and it helps the world. Am I right? I'm pretty sure I just summed up most of what you said. Well, guess what - near half the world disagrees with you, if not more. My problem with Christians making statements like this is what they are automatically assuming, without question, that they're religion is the 'correct' one, the one that should influence people because it's 'right'.

What if there's a lot of people don't agree with your views, don't think Christianity is 'correct' or 'right', and don't think it should influence America in any way? Well it just so happens there's a whole huge heaping pile of people like that, and on a world level, they outnumber Christians by far. Statements like this just offend them.

Christianity doesn't need a leg up, is what I'm saying. Do you know how much of the world is controlled by a Christian influence? Including America? I shouldn't even have to make an argument here.

To me it looks like Christians who make statements like that just aren't happy about how big a chunk of the playing field they already have - they just want a bigger one. Looks suspiciously greedy to me. I can't look anywhere in my home town without seeing 100% Christian influence and 0% other religious influence. In everything. In grocery stores, in malls, in the hundreds of churches everywhere (where are the mosques, temples, all those religious buildings? I can't seem to find them), it's a part of almost everything in the average American's life whether he's Christian or not.

Doesn't look like Christianity needs any more 'help' to me.

Yup! Fair's fair, and I enjoy reading a good rant. :)


Are you sure? I don't remember hearing that... do ya have anything I can read up on that, then?

There have been some prominent figures that were... tolerated, but they're like the celebrities of today: they were above the law, so their deeds went unpunished. I'm talking about the average person.


Trust me, I'll be the first to say women have had it worse than gays, and for far longer. My point though, is that the practice or expression of homosexual feeling and the practice of homosexual intercourse were both severely punished. Thus, bisexual/homosexual people have been repressed for a long time.


Wynni, you point me to whoever tells you you have to be quiet, and I'll sock 'em for ya. :P In terms of individual freedom, it is "freedom of" and not "freedom from"; but in terms of politics and legislation, it should be "freedom from" any particular religious doctrine.


I can't speak to that, since I don't know the specifics, but consider this: my high school, a public high school, didn't allow the formation of a gay-straight alliance on the grounds that it qualified as a "political or religious club." We only got to meet because the law requires the school to allow us to do so; but the law doesn't require them to recognize, sponsor, endorse, or make official any club they don't want to. We had to fight for damn near everything, including using existing clubs to hold events like "Day of Silence" for us.

Oh my god, the threads on fire!

See that was a joke. It’s what I do.


Moving on however, I have some thoughts about the current persecution complex that a lot of Christians seem to have. In a way, its Christianities fault.

The faith of the Jewish people (and that is where Christianity came from0 is a very insular faith. No surprise really considering the Jews were enslaved, conquered, and generally treated like crap for such a long time. Conditions like that tend to make religions that are rather focused around one group, rather than the whole of the world. The Jews God was different from other gods, in the idea that it created the universe and it had absolutely all say in absolutely everything. Period. Compared to other faiths of the time it was rather radical.

But to make a long story short (and it is a long story) the Jewish people develop he idea that they were unerringly right, and if you didn’t believe in their religion you were going to hell. That tends to annoy those not in the religion.

So then Judaism split off into Christianity, which really only added things to the Jewish scriptures (though not at first) and went off on their merry way. Unfortunately for them, they kept the insular nature of the Jewish religion. Enough so that they pissed off the Romans, who were actually very tolerant of other religions. Of course those early Christians didn’t se it that way. More of a, I’m right, you’re wrong, nyah nyah situation with little room for compromise. This has continued since Christianities inception, even into the splinter factions of Muslimism.

What I’m trying to say is that while Christianity preached quite a few good things, love and all that jazz, they still had that unmovable position that they were absolutely right, and that those who don’t believe just like them are going to burn in hell (or simply not go to heaven in older interpretations), and as such need to be saved. Sometimes forcibly.

Perhaps you can see why that gets under peoples skin

Christianity is a good, powerful belief system, but has the misfortune to be part of the insular Judeo-Christian religions. Unlike some religions, mostly the old pagan ones, Buddhism, and Hinduism (in some occasions) which can accommodate quite a few interpretations (your god is our god in another guise typically) Christianity has built this sort of unassailable wall of righteousness. Because of this they have built up quite a bit of ill will from other people, just because they believe it is the right thing to do (meaning convert people)

Or at least that’s my take on it. Christianity seems “oppressed” because they have a uncomfortable tendency to stick their noses into everything.