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Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that Eric will, at some point, get a rude awakening about how he's taken Kat for granted all these years and put on blinders just because she's kedrian?

I've tried to be objective about their relationship, in that I try to get into this world Tom has created and look at it from the perspective of someone who actually lives there, so, let me start with my view of Eric.

Eric is a man of means. He lives in a place that appears to be more "kedrian friendly" than many places, and he's become quite the slaver. Thing is, (even though it's understandable due to his culture) he doesn't "get it" that slavery is just plain wrong. He's still a human with a human's view of the world, believing that kedrian are at their core as much animal as humanoid, but he's progressive. Unlike most humans, he realizes that they have their own feelings, hopes, dreams and desires, but he completely misses the fact that when push comes to shove, he sees them as possessions, not individuals. As far as Kat is concerned, I am very convinced at this point that he cares for her much more than he's allowed himself to believe. Thing is, because of the way he has been raised, he doesn't seem to see a thing wrong with lending her out to someone for "services". Now, I don't know about you, but I'm a selfish person, and in my book, you DO NOT share the woman you love with anyone else. Let's take Trace and Flora as an example. Can you see Trace willingly loaning Flora out to some other male for "services"?

I didn't think so....

Now, as far as Kat is concerned, she's more or less resigned to the way things are. It's obvious to me that she cares deeply for Eric and wishes that he'd reciprocate on the same level, but in her world, things are about as good as they'll ever get. As far as sex goes, well, Eric obviously has no problem with kedrian's and humans being together. What I have noted however, is that there is very obviously NOT a human female love interest in his life. It's as if he's in lala land. And why shouldn't he be? He can have any of the female kedrian's he owns if he so desires. Interestingly though, Kat seems to be his personal cuddle kitty, the one he brings into his bed on a regular basis, even though he never really does anything with her (http://twokinds.comicgenesis.com/d/20061018.html). He likes her so much, in fact, that he bought her from his own brother and exempts her from the control spell that is supposed to be placed upon all kedrian slaves. Yeah, things have been really marvelous in "Eric's World", but it seems to me that his boat is getting closer and closer to being rocked, and has been ever since Flora and Trace showed up.

It's already affected Kat. She picked up on Flora's love for Trace real quick (http://twokinds.comicgenesis.com/d/20060911.html) and dropped a large hint to Eric, who was to air-headed to figure out what she meant.

So...what I'm thinkin is this. Kat is going to get to the point (after seeing Flora and Trace together long enough) where she'll realize that she doesn't want to just be Eric's boon companion. She loves him, and if he won't reciprocate, she won't be able to take it anymore. So what will she do?

Of course, I realize that ALL of this is just conjecture. For all I know, Tom could read this, laugh hystericaly, then do something entirely different. In fact, the "entirely different" thing is a very high probabality, IMO. Hopefully I won't be laughed at hystericaly....

Any thoughts?

Tom does have a way of making things a bit more complex than is usual in a "comic".

The most interesting comparison I've seen is with something that has got a lot of study by historians in recent years: the relationship between the US's second president, Thomas Jefferson, and his slave Sally Hemings. She was actually his wife's half-sister. There's an ongoing question of how many of her children he fathered. (But the actual evidence is sorta weak.)

One of the interesting stories was when he went to France as an ambassador. Sally went with him. At the time, slavery was illegal in France, and as soon as she stepped onto French soil, she could have claimed her freedom. But she didn't. Later, when he went back home to the US, she went with him, and returned to slavery. Now, why would she do something like that?

A number of historians have pointed out that, at that time, in both the US and France, it was actually a better deal to be a slave of an alpha-male like Jefferson that it was to be a free, single woman. Yes, she might have found a husband, but historians have also argued that that wasn't actually a very good deal, either. In the US, a slave owner had more obligations to his slaves (mostly "Keep them alive and healthy") than to a wife, who could be treated much worse than a slave without any authorities interfering. I've read the explanation that "Any man can beat his wife, but good men don't beat their slaves." Jefferson apparently did neither, which made him a good "master" to both his wife and his slave.

I've seen some similar comments about a curiousity of current US law: In most states, if you mistreat your child and your pet dog, you can get much more severe punishment for mistreating the animal. People routinely mistreat children (and wives) in rather awful ways, without any interference other than strong admonishment. But a mistreated dog invokes everyone's wrath and attracts the attention of the law.

Anyway, the twokinds world seems a lot like this. Rampant "speciesism", open and unashamed slavery, etc. In the 1820s US, a free black man could be nabbed by a white man and carted off as a slave. In twokinds, a free keidran wandering around the forest can be nabbed by any human and made a slave, and nobody would lift a finger to help the poor creature.

Kathrin could well be making the judgement that, in her world, she already has about the best deal that she is likely to ever find. Like Sally Hemings, she has a loving master that treats her well, and she probably knows that most slave owners aren't as good as he is. If she knows anything about free keidrans (and she might not), she could feel that being dumped alone in their midst might not be all that wonderful. She isn't living in a very pleasant world, and most of her options are bad.

And there's still the plot point of that Mask who is enabling human-keidran fertility. We don't actually know that Eric and Kat have never had sex. What he has said has been rather ambiguous, along the lines of "I haven't taken advantage of her". But if she has come on to him during their snuggling, he could have been happy to comply with her wishes. If not, this could happen in the near future, as she's about the right age to come into heat.

Also, when it becomes clear that humans and keidran can now have children, Eric and Kat may start looking at each other in a new light. Like Sally and her man Tom, Kat may soon be looking at Eric as a good man with a good social position, who can give her children and a good life. And she might be hinting at marriage, too. Or maybe in their world, slavery is actually a stronger legal bond, as it once was in the US.

She already knows how to turn on the tears to persuade him.

Anyway, Tom may not want to deal with this. Or, more likely, he'll find a way to make it even more complex than it is. There's room for a lot more complexity in this pair's relationship.

Remember - Just because she offers "services" - that doesnt mean sex or sexual "favors". Tom has even said - it is meant to make people think that- thats part of the humor - but that doesn't mean that is what it is.

Kinda like in Utawarerumono a princess says her servant is very skilled in bed- while she means she is very skilled at MAKING the bed.

So - Eric treats Kat like a slave? Hmmm- if so shes a very lucky slave. If you are in a world with slavery - where everyone doesnt have a problem with it- is slavery wrong? Nope- why? Because in this case- what is wrong and right is determined by the majority. But what is best about this is- its enslavement of another race. If humans think of Keidrans as animals- then its more like pets and beasts of burden - not slavery. That is how many of the humans see this.

I think Eric is really nice- letting Kat see the world even though she wont be alive long enough to see it all.
And Kat is happy being a slave - if she werent dont you think she would ask Eric to release her? She's happy with being a slave.

So what is the problem? They are both better off than Trace and Flora.

The only diference here, is that Kat enjoys being with Eric, not being a slave. We can understand this by the way she talked about Eric's brother. So, in a way, she is in love with him, or looks to him as a big brother or something like that. Though the sexual thing, is a little bit more kinky to consider...

Well we know Kathrin has "feelings" for eric (the waterworks), but what type as in love or just happy to be with him (like Mr. J and his Slave) has yet to be completly revealed.

But some people have a point when they say that she's getting to the point of just asking him straight up front, Add to that Eric's "air-head" characteristics, And you can see how Eric might be in for a big surprise (i.e. "OMG SHE LOVES ME" leading to passing out)

It'd definetly make alot of fans (myself included) happy to see them get together though IMO

An interesting viewpoint, and one I share, insofar as them being looked on more as pets than slaves. I submit to you, however, that if you were a slave in say a roman galley, you'd have a problem with it. I am not trying to be flip with you, but I feel it's important to point out that just because slavery is practiced by a large social group doesn't make it a good thing. Another question I'd ask is, do the kedrian keep human slaves? I am aware there are some free Kedrian's, and I had always thought they had some sort of territory. Point is, I've never seen anything about a kedrian having a human slave.



Well, I'm a tad skeptical on that. I think she's happy because she very much cares for Eric and has never known anything else.



How so? Because they aren't on the run? They way I see it, they don't have the same kinds of life problems, but at least Trace and Flora have been able to accept the fact that they do love each other. I have to say though, it was hilarious to me when Flora mentioned the M word :)

1. Can you prove that galley slaves were generally more unhappy than free Romans (citizens that is, not released slaves)? (I know it sounds logical, and I thought of a lot of indications while writing this, but I'd like to know whether you have some sound proof of it.)
2. To continue the assumption that humans look at Keidran as animals: animals don't keep humans either, so in human eyes it wouldn't mean anything that Keidran don't keep humans.

My contribution to the 'pet' point: to discuss this properly, we need to decide whether we use the ethical system of the humans in TK or we impose our own ethics upon them. In the latter case, you can go on moaning that slavery is bad. However, in the first case we can get an interesting discussion on the ethics of the TK humans. You probably already chose your position when posting here, but if we don't make our starting point explicit, there will probably be a lot of talking at cross-purposes.

I think you might want to realize- Trace is a power hungry human that once tried to kill every keidran he could. Now he is clueless and in love with a keidran. What happens when his memory returns completely? Ya have a mass murdering guy sleeping with the people he murders while still trying to gain more power that makes him go crazy...

Trace has enough problems for all of em- then you throw Flora in - an escaped slave that was going to be taken to a whore house, not traveling with a psycho that isnt sure if he wants to have sex with her or kill her- she ran from her family to get away from a marriage - this has caused 2 tribes of the same species to become enemies and they sent assassins after them - and then - templars are after them too.

Now lets look at Eric and Kat's case- Eric is a wealth merchant with a sexy slave girl.
Kat is a sexy slave girl that gets about as much freedom as she can possibly get in a human world and gets to be with a guy that cares for her that just so happens to be.

Who is better off?

My position on slavery is that I see very little good as the fruit of it. I am certain you can produce endless examples of how a persons condition would be improved or better as the slave of someone who would treat them well, but I submit to you that, by and large, being free to choose your own destiny, even if it's a poor one, is better than being kept like a pet or a piece of furniture.

As to producing evidence on the lot of roman galley slaves...well, we have very little documentation from antiquity available. If you are insatiable in your need to do so, then feel free to research it. What I can tell you is that the majority of the rowers in a roman galley were either people condemned there as punishment for crimes, or they were people taken prisoners in war. From what I remember of my roman history, they were kept, when off duty, in the very bottom hold. Disease, malnutrition and all manner of other misery was the norm. In short, being sent to the galleys was generally accepted as a sentence of slow death. And while in combat, the rowers were chained to the benches. If the boat sank, you were most likely going down with it. Now, you can say what you will, but I just cannot believe that anyone would feel that was a good situation to be in.

As to your position on kedrians being animals, well, just because they see it that way, it doesn't make it right. If the kedrian thought being human "pets" was such a wonderful idea, then there would be no conflict.

In short, any kind of racial persecution, regardless of the history behind it, isn't justifiable to me. Sorry, it's just how I feel.

Sage....

I totally understand where you're coming from. I guess what I am doing a bad job of communicating is this: I feel that Trace and Flora have a destiny to fulfill that will transcend all of the issues that you have so eloquently pointed out. Yes, Trace has ALL that baggage. Yes, Flora has plenty of her own. But you know....I just in my gut feel the're going to make it work, and the TK world will change for the better because of it.

At least, I hope so :)

as you and a couple of other people have pointed out, basically kat has a lot of freedom, and can control her master a bit, and i mean, she gets to travel with him(like now), always has good food, a nice place to be, and probly works less than if she had to fend for herself. also, isnt that town on the edge of Keidran territory(according to the spoiler-map) ? it looks like it. if kat had really wanted to escape, not being under a control spell or anything, could have simply walked out of town late at night or something(if anyone asked, her master sent her to get something), then just run through the forest and gotten deep in Keidran territory(which would mask any trail she might leave, and make it too dangerous for someone to try to catch her), and then made a life there, however it would seem to be that kat is treated nicely, and happy where she is.


p.s. yea, tom always makes ambiguous statements, like when kat said "services" which could either mean something innocent... or something less than innocent.

I think it's an aspect of Erik's perversion. He probably knows Kat won't let anyone else do anything with her, and he gets a thrill from other people ogling her. That's what I think, I very easily could be wrong.