Twokinds ARCHIVE Forums

So, yeah. You know what? Circuit City can bite my fluffy fox butt. Those jerkwads are getting more and more bold in their deceptive practices and can go straight to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. They keep doing these terrible "doorbuster" deals of games that, oh darn, JUST sold out this morning. But hey, wouldn't ya know, the day the sale ends, they suddenly have 20 in stock! Or, hey, I know, let's make a woman 9 MONTHS PREGNANT stand in line for 3 FLIPPIN' HOURS without giving her a seat or letting her advance to the front because its "against store policy" while only three of five registers are open. That makes complete effin' sense. Oh, and managers, make sure your [censored] are puckered tight! If a customer comes wanting a pricematch, pretend you can't while standing in front of a sign urging customers to price match. Oh, make sure you also hire clueless jerks that don't where anything is, can't work the registers, and chat on their cell phone while asking you to wait.

Of course, Gamestop, or as I call it, Rapestop, isn't much better. Hey, got a game you wanna sell us? Great! We'll pay you $5, and turn around and mark it up 1000% and sell it for $50! Don't want to preorder a game? Doesn't matter! We'll bug the [censored] out of you asking over and over, and add it to your bill anyways! Wanna take back a game? Sure! We'll refund you everything but $0.20. Not enough to make you complain, but enough to scam you and steal your money! Want the game that just came out? Oh, sorry, you didn't preorder it, and we only have enough to fulfill preorders. Ignore the 20 boxes of the game being unpacked behind me, and the fact that I just said we got our shipments in once a week, and that we'll be selling it tomorrow. What's that, is a game out yet? No, but you better preorder it! It's really popular, and I'm sure it'll sell out for weeks! You're asking about Barney's Cake Adventure? Yep, it'll be sold out everywhere for weeks. Better preorder!!

Corporations suck.

Oh, you know what else is great? People who pass judgment before they even know you! More than once I've heard that I or gays don't have it as hard as Christians. Really? Here, let me describe my life to you!

I'm gay, only I'm not completely sure since I'm a virgin. I kept it hidden for years, only to have my parents discover a chat identifying me as both gay AND a fur. I got to get outed in front of my mother by my father to hear her say "No!" over and over again before leaving the room. So my parents knew before I was ready to tell them, and guess what? They're very conservative Christians! Divorce is immoral, sex is taboo, etc. etc. So I get to get dragged to a church whenever I'm home even though I don't believe anymore, but I can't say that or I'll break my parents hearts! Have any of you ever gotten to hear your mother say she wanted to kill herself because of you? Because I have! I'll either catch AIDS and die, kill myself from depression, get killed by the people I talk to online, and tear the family apart. I'm just confused and it's all just a phase. But do any of you get to hear your mother cry when she thinks you're not around because she thinks she'll lose you, you're going to hell, and it's all her fault? Because I have! I have feelings for a guy I met online and have known for roughly 2 years, both of us furries, and if I ever move things beyond internet, well, so much fear of anyone I meet online has been instilled that I know a lot about him, and he knows little about me, and I'm scared [censored] to meet him, let alone give him my contact info, even though he's give me some of his! He's 7 years older than me and hundreds of miles away, and things are now on the rocks because of me and because he feels he's responsible for what's going on between me and my family, and our meeting would further hurt my family. No one else knows all this, and I'm too afraid to tell anyone offline, because of how my family will react and how the person I tell would react. I'm probably suffering depression or bipolar, and I can't get counseling for any of this because I'm too afraid of, again, anyone offline knowing or my family disapproving! I don't fit in to the majority of the furry community because I'm not into beastiality or only having fur friends or having open mateships, I don't love animals more than humans or anything. I don't fit into the gay community because I have no desire to be promiscuous or to date, but to just be with one guy for my lifetime. I don't know if I may be transgendered/transsexual, whichever one identifies with women, because I have a mix of feminine and masculine traits that makes me not identify with women OR men. I have worries about becoming the submissive "woman" in a relationship and want to be equal to my partner, sexually (not relegated to "bottom") and in the relationship. I think I'm one of the ugliest people I've ever seen and hate my body, face, teeth, hair, everything. If I didn't love food I'd probably be anorexic, but I love food so I have a paunch. I feel hated by just about every religion out there, but crave something higher to believe in, but if it's not Christianity, again, my family will be devastated!

So that's a good chunk of my life as it stands, leaving out plenty of other, less-important things. You think you have it worse off than me because you're Christian? You want my [censored] life? Take it! I'll take yours any [censored] day of the week.

Moving on, I hate all the candidates in the next election. Obama has no experience, Clinton is... I don't even need to say anything, Edwards is wishy-washy, McCain is a panderer, Romney's a neo-con on morality, Huckabee is even worse on morality, Paul would be devastating to civil rights, and Giuliani is a corrupt opportunist.

I'm voting third party for sure.

You seem to have a lot on your mind.
I'm not really the best at saying things like this but I your life takes a turn for the better.
Keep going, it'll all work out in the end. :wink:

I'm going to start off by asking you to take everything I say with a grain of salt. You obviously have some issues with Christianity, as well as other organized religions. I don't have much to say as far as your sexual questions go, but I would like to shed some light onto some of the Christian issues you may or may not be facing.

I'll just start out by saying I'm Christian, so my views are fairly conservative. I don't pretend- even for a second- that I or any other Christian is better than you. Everyone messes up (I do much more often than I would like to admit), so please do not think I'm trying to preach down to you either. I simply am trying to offer a you a different view. Whether you think about it or never look at it, it's just my opinion.

You said that you grew up (or are still growing up) in a conservative, Christian household. You also said that you do not believe anymore, which means you may have at least wondered about it at one point. I assume your parents dragged you to church when you were younger (mine sure did), so you may have at least some understanding of the Bible. I assume your parents are avid church-goers, so they want you to go as well. Also, you believe, with good reason, that your life is harder than the average church-goer.

It's only natural that your parents brought you up in a Christian home if they are Christian. And for whatever reason, you stopped believing in God. Christians, as you well know by now, believe that if you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your savior, you will not spend eternity in heaven. That is a pretty cut and clear passage. Probably the biggest thing you can do right now, as well as the hardest, is to at least humor your parents. Just force yourself to go to church. It wasn't until I was almost done with middle school that I stopped hating going to church. I know it can be boring, tedious, and just plain stupid.

You may not know this, but God makes a few promises throughout the Bible. One of them lies in the book of Ephesians (6:1). God makes a promise that if children (obey/respect) their parents, he will pour out blessings. I guarantee that if you at least feign interest and go to church every once and a while, you will start to see His blessings being poured out onto you and your family. And don't think that you're some sort of infection in the church. Some people get this crazy idea that church is for the "good" people, when the truth is far from it. I was far from clean when I first became a Christian. A good buddy of mine used to be heavily into drugs, alcohol, sex, you name it, yet he never burst into flames when he walked through the door. Church is not a hotel for saints, it's a hospital for sinners (myself included).

As far as your relationship with your friend goes, the word is very clear on that fact. God doesn't like the act of homosexuality. This topic has been beaten to death, especially on this forum, so I'll be brief. God frowns on the act of homosexuality, not the homosexuals themselves. God doesn't hate fags or anything like that. God doesn't hate anyone. Don't let some religious fanatic drive you away.

To be perfectly honest, I'm still not too clear on the concept of a furry. I don't have any advice on this topic. Unless someone else has an idea, it's just something you should ask God in prayer.

If you feel that you need counseling, I urge you to at least talk to your parents about it. You can show them that you're trying to take the steps to solve your problems, and I believe that they will respect that. I can't say whether or not they will pursue it, but letting your problems build up over the next few years can cause dire consequences to yourself and your family. I have (rather had) friends that are no longer with us who chose the wrong course of action. If you feel that you need help, then make sure you parents know. They love you, and they want to do everything they can to help you.

Also, your body is the way it is for a reason.

Psalm 139: 13-16

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Before the Earth was formed, before time itself began, God know exactly how he was going to create you. God knows exactly how many hairs are on your head. He knows everything about your body, He made it in His own image, after all. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. The world is always going to be against you. The Enemy uses everything in his arsenal to make you miserable- to make me miserable. The Enemy stops at nothing, and will try to destroy everything you hold dear- family, friends, yourself. I can attest to this from personal experience, but I'll save them for later.

I suppose you may have been misled about Christianity. We're always known for what we are against, so I don't blame anyone for having a negative view toward us. But what many people don't see is what makes up the foundation of Christianity- servitude and love. Everyone, Christian and non-Christian, can get lost in a maze of uncertainty, made ever stronger by the Enemy. Just know that the hate-spewing "evangelists" you see on the news represent a minority of us, but try to speak for all of us. Christianity is about love and servitude. Thats it. Almost seems to simple.


I hope this has helped you gain some perspective on Christianity. It's hard to sum up my entire life in a forum, but I feel I have the gist of it. And if anyone sees a mistake, please let me know so I may fix it.

Let's start with a foreward: Ryusen's words are more valuable than mine, pay attention to them. He's got some terrific quotations, and he lays them all out pretty well.

Hoo boy, this is going to take the hipwaders... Alright, too much to handle at once, let's break it down, start with what's easy. ;)

The election. (Wow...that's the easy part?) That's a different opinion of Paul than I've heard before (since he's really Libertarian from everything I've heard), but you know what, you're right about everything else, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. This is a terrible election. Nobody deserves to win. Right now, I think I'm actually going for Ron Paul, just because I think that Congress will make sure he can't actually accomplish anything. I don't know where my vote's going to fall, but if a third-party candidate was ever going to win an election in recent history, this would be it.

Now for the hard part...You're running headlong into the worst set of what people consider adolescent self-definition I've heard. Maybe I've just been blessed (actually, I know I have; my parents are great), but we Christians don't have it that bad right now (the world may not conform to our values, but most places aren't violently opposed to them, and we've really only got to deal with insult-slinging here in the U.S. and Europe). From the noises I've heard from elsewhere, I suspect you're in the quiet majority of homosexuals, Kinuki. I tend to use you guys as my very definition of an incredibly hard life. I can't...I have to admit, I can't imagine the feeling of betrayal that you've got to live with. For Pete's sake, we're talking about your family and God here. If there's anybody in the entire universe who should be able to manage to love you for who you are and not judge, freak out, or push you away, that's the group. *sigh*

Alright, let me tell it to you as I read it -- Your parents are terrified. You get the wrong minister, and you get told that you're going straight to Hell because of who you sleep with, even if you never chose who you're attracted to. (Dr. Dobson is unfortunately bad about this. He's done a lot for building Christian families up, but homosexuality happens to be something that he deals with a bit too harshly, probably because it's disruptive to picture of the nuclear family that Focus on the Family encourages.) Everything we hear about the gay community is that they're destined for unhappiness and a life filled with multiple partners with no hope for real love and a higher chance for venereal disease than several Vietnam vets put together. All told, it makes it seem patently ridiculous that someone would choose to be gay ("Yes, I'd prefer to go with 'live a terrible life filled with meaningless sex and a horrible lingering death'"). So that's the life your parents fear you'll have. No parent wants their children to be unhappy, but because they can't figure out how to make things 'right,' they flop around, desperately making things worse. That doesn't justify their actions, and you know what, I'm disappointed in them. I'm close to my blood running cold. I'd shout at your mother for close to half an hour unceasing given the opportunity. Imagine. Her son's going through his own part of Hell, and here she is shoveling on coal. Bloody hell.

*deep breath* Sorry, that's not very useful advice, now is it? Erm, how about "Internet relationship?" That's one I have experience with, and my ex was also seven years older than I. Mine didn't work out -- I couldn't take the distance (roughly 1500 miles), but that's me. I don't happen to think it's wrong to prefer a "partner" role; in point of fact, I agree completely (though I'm more on the dominant end of the scale -- I don't want to be stuck to dominance the whole time, I actually fear it; I worry I'll get bored). Your parents would have found out eventually, this may have been unfortunately early, but it's time to deal with it, both them and you; your boyfriend shouldn't blame himself. If your parents could deal with you being gay, we could deal with "Internet boyfriend." Phone conversations help out a lot on that count. It's easier to convince your folks that he's not some kind of freakish predator if they can talk to him on the phone (that's what helped convince my folks, anyway).

*sigh* I don't know if I'm any help or just contributing to rant space, and I've got to get back to work anyway. Just take away from all my crap above that there are (if perhaps only a few) of us Christian guys who are pulling for you.

Yeah, Christians in America/Europe have it easy. That I can admit. But try telling all that to a Chinese or Middle Eastern Christian and they'll tell you to suck it up, because the price for their faith is imprisonment, starvation, torture, excommunication, and death. It really does depend on locale.

On another note, I agree about corporations. Read the Consumerist and you'll want to punch anyone who works anywhere. :3

Firstly, let me say this. Paragraphs. You need some paragraphs.

Secondly, unlike Avwolf and Ryusen, I'm atheist. :twisted: But I'm not going to launch into a anti-religion speech, because I dislike putting people down, and to each his own, and all that claptrap. Especially since both Av and Ryu have great, valid points in what they are saying.

I don't have much experience with homosexuals, except for a bisexual friend I have. To me, there's nothing really terrible about it. You could be born one, or become one, and in the end the people who whine about it are either the self-righteous or the insecure. There are, of course, people like the Christians who are against such a thing, and their arguments [the ones that don't mention the bible] on the matter are for the most part, technically true. And if your God were to punish someone for something he does, wouldn't you feel the need to go help him before said punishment takes place? The way I see it, these people are just trying to help you out.

Also, if you say you're a furry, you are. If you say you're gay, you probably are as well. There's no need to rape an animal or have lots of sex to prove yourself, no need to swear an oath to a certain sex to be happy, no need to worry about being hated by a religion. Some people are going to disagree with you one way or another, and it's a crying shame if you break down because you simply thought differently.

My advice? Something my dad likes to tell me. Make a choice, stand by it. Don't keep second-guessing everything. Listen to what the people around you say, let it add to your understanding of something, but when the time comes, make sure you can live with whatever you've chosen for the rest of your life.

And if you think you're ugly, look around. There's usually someone even uglier than you are. Unless you like to stand around models.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, by the way. Anything that does feel like an insult is probably me just using the wrong words. Models are great people who deserve more respect in life. Unlike certain religious people. :x

Just joking. :wink: Really! I am!

No kidding. I was going to find this one story of a kid who got beaten with a nailed board until his legs broke, then was hung outside, upside-down, for three days. Even that wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't his own father that did it.

What's more, that kid, at a very young age besides, managed to forgive his father for that. That's part of a creed I've sworn my life to, and I don't think I could do that. (I don't have a source, or a name (twenty-syllable names tend not to stick in my head), but I can tell you that it was a moving story, at the least. It gives you new perspective when you have family problems. It's likely no one's decided to try and kill you yet. And even if they have, they probably meant to do it quickly. Having a father who wants to torture you to death because you decide on your own religion might sound impossibly barbaric in cushy-cushy America, but a decently large of the world -in a moral sense- is still in the "Commit suicide because your husband died and a woman is nothing without a man" stage, or "Their religion is different, so they'll try and kill us all."

(Also, it's funny that most of these countries tend to reside in the 10/40 window, which has the least understanding of the Bible in the world.)

Lots of replies. Thanks everyone. Lemme take these one by one.

Ryusen:



The issue of my faith versus who I am, and the way Christianity has had an impact and influence on all of the things that have made things... difficult, shall we say, are what make me have so many issues, such a chip on my shoulder.

I would like to first establish that as I said, I once was Christian, and believed. I didn't really pray or attend church, since I was so young and it never seemed like a big deal. But I believe I have a solid grasp of Christianity, and I know very well many of the teachings on homosexuality.



I did respect and obey my parents; I almost always followed their rules, did as they asked (even if with grumbling), and did my best for them. I never smoke, drank, did drugs, etc. I attended church, whenever we went (we weren't very regular churchgoers, but they are now...), and I never felt these benefits, these blessings. In fact, I just became.. hateful. I denied everything and became incredibly conservative, just attacked anything moderate or liberal, including gay marriage. That wasn't a good time. =/



And this is why I can't believe. I can't believe in a faith that would force me to deny who I am, and I'll touch on this in a paragraph below more. I do know that God doesn't hate gays, and anyone who says that is just stupid.



See, this is where the problem arises for me. How could God make me gay and give me the ability to love another man, and then deny me that? That seems to be the cruelest thing anyone could do to me, to deny me love, or to express that love. I mean, could you imagine being told, you must never marry, never have sex, never love a woman?



And if I could be gay, and I mean that in the sense of living with a partner, and be Christian, without incompatibility, I would probably choose Christianity as my faith. Isn't that bitterly ironic? I want to help people. I dream of starting non-evil corporations or volunteering in Darfur, or just something that would impact someone's life positively, and if it glorified a God I could believe in, and make people happy, fantastic. I think the message of love is beautiful, too.

avwolf:



He's a huge proponent of states' rights, and if you look at the history of gay civil rights, much of it came from the courts striking down unconstitutional laws (he's against judicial review, and wants a DOMA with protection from judicial review). I mean, in 2003, the SCOTUS struck down a Texas sodomy law, a law making it illegal for two guys or two girls to have sex in the privacy of their home. Now, imagine if suddenly the states got to decide for themselves? We've already seen some of those consequences; I think it's 46 states now ban gay marriage, and 18 ban partnerships of any kind, ever. So... if I'm not thrilled about crucial issues defining my life getting decided by the majority, I hope that explains why. Plus, he's basically an isolationist, and seems to want to pull us out of NATO, the UN, etc. etc. And we all saw isolationism worked so well last time, right? :P *coughcough*World War I*coughcough*



I'm really in the "violently-opposed-to-theocracy" camp, but I think every individual has an innate right to believe as they wish, and display their faith as openly and publicly as they wish, presuming its not infringing on others rights or being disruptive. I mean, I'm friends with a Muslim, an atheist, an agnostic, a Hindu, a few conservative Christians, etc. And how do we get along? We just agree to disagree, and respect and care for each other as people. I sincerely wish the world could follow such an example.

[quotes]From the noises I've heard from elsewhere, I suspect you're in the quiet majority of homosexuals, Kinuki. I tend to use you guys as my very definition of an incredibly hard life. I can't...I have to admit, I can't imagine the feeling of betrayal that you've got to live with. For Pete's sake, we're talking about your family and God here. If there's anybody in the entire universe who should be able to manage to love you for who you are and not judge, freak out, or push you away, that's the group. *sigh*[/quote]

Thanks. That means a lot. :) *hug, if ya want it*



Honestly, this is exactly what I think it is. Everything they believe in, ever have known, and were raised to believe says it's wrong, and that the punishment is going straight to Hell. And who wants to be separated from their child for eternity? All their experiences also point to what you mentioned; many gays they knew died of AIDS, were unhappy and committed suicide (apparently their best man was gay and killed himself), etc. I just wish there was a way to show them, you know, it's not like that anymore, not nearly so much.



That's what I hope. Plus, I hope it'd also show 'em I'm not going to go sleep around and catch AIDS, but be in a stable relationship. Maybe, of course; the person of which I speak and I are not official, never have been, as we didn't want to be like many furry mated couples and be "mates" and then break up 3 months later. We wanted to make sure it'd work in a real relationship before going far or dating or anything.



As for the whole Us/Middle East Christian thing, I do recognize that they have a much harder run of it than US Christians, to which this was directed. I won't say I have it better or worse than them, as the problems I face and they face are rather different. I hope they find peace though, as no one deserves such [censored] treatment. :cry:



True, but it's usually been "OMG YOU'RE GOING TO HELL REPENT!!" That does no good; converting out of fear of Hell is no way to believe. To me, the only true way to believe is to want to believe.

Some of my gay and bi friends and I (I'm bi too) still go to church only because Christianity teaches forgiveness. Which is very contradictory.

I'm going to find the answer to this, I swear it. I've had so much going on lately that I've been distracted, but I swear I am going to find the answer. (You're really just reminding me that I was supposed to be trying to track that one down for some months now...)

Let me offer more encouragement on the online thing. My cousin got married to a girl he met online. The wedding was in California (that's where she's from) last October (October 2006, I mean). So they've been married for a bit over a year now, and are very happy. In fact, their first kid was born not long ago. So can work out. You've just got to be very, very careful. (Like I say, I'm leery of trusting my dating to the Internet, simply because the Internet and I are close friends. I know the Internet too well. The Internet has really terrible judgment. ;))


It's not really that contradictory if it's taught properly. The thing is, your sexual orientation is such a big part of who you are, things get very complicated, and it's difficult to deal with separating out how it's a sin to be what you are. The thing that is not emphasized enough is that the straight folks are no better in the eyes of God than the gay ones. Believe me, I've got my sins, and some of them are pretty deeply ingrained. I'm no better or worse than anyone else. The sticky point is Kinuki's above. For most people, there's this feeling of choosing the sin, but gays feel born to it. Somewhere something is missing, a bit of the puzzle that lies outside my grasp.

So are you saying you became spiteful of God because that you never felt his blessings in your life, or just because of how the church's views conflicted with your own?

For a while, I didn't feel His blessing in my life either. In fact, this went on for a while. There were things that happened that I could have attributed to divine intervention, but nothing much- until I left the country. I went on a mission trip to the slums of Quito, Ecuador. It was there that I saw God in a new light. I highly doubt you'll jump out of your seat and volunteer for a mission trip, but hear me out.

It wasn't until I returned to the states that I realized the blessings God had given me. Down in Quito, we saw, well, extreme poverty. Houses were nothing but some 2x4s and a sheet of aluminum. Kids wore their shoes completely through, some kids didn't even have shoes. There was the parent involvement (or rather, lack of), and the food shortage as well.

Of course, I eventually returned to my nice little house. For the US, I would consider it quaint. But from Quito, it's a mansion. We actually had running water, we had roofs that held, food, electricity, safe neighborhoods, the list went on. I never though of these things as gifts before, just items which I grew up with. These are the blessings that God gives. Of course, the ultimate blessing was just my family- still together. It's not until you realize just how much you have that you realize just how much you've been blessed.

If you really want to see your blessings, start by putting yourself in a room- just you. Everything you own, all your friends and family, add them in one at a time. Each one a blessing. Add in each of your belongings- another blessing. You get the idea.

Sorry if you were expecting God to open up the heavens and start talking to you. I'm still waiting on that one myself.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what Catholic priests (bishops, etc.) do?

This gets into a little foggier area. Maybe you were born gay, maybe you weren't. This topic deserves a thread all to itself, and I believe that it already has multiple ones floating around somewhere.

Yikes - that's a perfect storm of issues there, that it is...
O.o

As for the online relationship, two things:

First - If you are indeed a minor (might be - not sure), and he is seven years older than you...then, yeah...the odds are against you - there's going to be some waiting there - and you'd best be careful...

Second - If you are older, then there is more reason for hope. Aside from Avwolf's good news (congrats to your cousin!), I am living proof that an online relationship came become a very real, very rewarding one - the lovely gal sitting beside me right now is proof of that.
:3 <3

I'm pretty much agnostic these days, but I was also raised in a strictly conservative Christian home, and understand very well how you are feeling pretty oppressed, downtrodden and persecuted by your religion right now. The orthodox Christian theology is not very flexible when it comes to your lifestyle choice, unfortunately (perhaps Avwolf will find something to mitigate this). It generally comes down to this: If sexual orientation is something you are born with, then it cannot be a sin ~ a sin requires a conscious choice to do something one knows is "wrong" (or to not do "the right thing")...

That's just my tiny little two halfpennies worth - you have already received some excellent advice from everyone else.
Uhmmm...hug?
:3

(Now, that earlier post has me wondering about the exact definition of "furry"...perhaps we need another thread to discuss that specific topic...hmm...)

Eh...Yes and no. By doctrine, we're born sinful; we don't have a choice in the matter. As I understand things, our choice is to believe and seek repentance or continue to live in sin. But that's something of a simplification.


I thought we had one of those. Stickied even. :P Fifth thread down in this very forum. *grin*

Incidentally, 'grats to you, Tuna. I hope you and your lovely are very happy for many years to come.

Agh. You know what? I'm too frazzled to meaningfully respond right ow. So just have a hug. *hugs*

I'll post tomorrow, probably.